Info om hur "man" bemöts

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  • @khanmank Ja det kan man i allra högsta grad fundera på. Han var inte helt smidig med det faktum att han tyckte det var en tråkig match, men att jag trotts detta lyckades underhålla på något vis. Fine, jag är ingen nunna. Springer gärna runt i små cheerleaderdräkter och bjuder på mig själv men detta var litet ruttet. Tur det inte kommer hända igen!
  • En liten del av min tro på bloodbowligheten dör när jag läser valda delar av bakgrunden till denna diskussionen. Det är en viktig tråd dock. Stå på er tjejer!
  • jori3641 wrote: »
    Stå på er tjejer!

    +1

    Men jag tycker fortfarande det är lite märkligt att sånthärnt fortfarande förekommer.
    Jag har förvisso inte varit på någon BB-turnering på länge. Dåförtiden var det på konvent och där drällde det ju av tjejer, nåja kanske inte direkt på BB-turneringen men överlag.

    Har jämställdheten tagit ett steg tillbaka i denna nischade del av brädspelskulturen?
    (eller aldrig kommit framåt?)
    ((eller minns jag bara fel?))
  • edited August 2014
    Det enda jag känner är lite tråkigt är när man står i kön för att lämna in rosters och ska anmäla sig då arrangören tittar på personen bakom mig och är redo att hjälpa denne. Eftersom det är nog inte troligt att lilla Betty ska vara med och spela, trots att jag står där i full spelmundering med laget i handen..
    Jag vet att vissa har blivit arga på mig för att jag tagit mot roster i oordning vid turneringsstart, men då har det inte handlat om sovjetiska köer utan mer italiensk oorganiserad trängsel och jag har alltid väldigt dålig koll på vem som väntat där längst. Om det är vid DOUBT som detta refererar till ber jag tusen gånger om ursäkt. Jag kan meddela att det inte har med kön, religion, ålder, geografisk härkomst eller något annat att göra, jag är orättvis och diskriminerar alla coacher precis lika mycket.
  • @stareater Detta utspelade sig i England. Har aldrig varit med om det i Sverige :) Det var en väldigt fint organiserad kö och trots att jag tydligt stod i den och väntade på min tur så blev jag förbisedd. Jag har inget att kommentera när det kommer till svenska evenemang, de är allt som oftast AWESOME! :D
  • Det tråkigaste här är ju att även om Bim och Betty inte låter några händelser förstöra hobbyn för dem så kan det finnas andra som efter ett trist bemötande på någon turnering tänker att nästa år skippar de det och lägger sin tid någonstans där de känner sig mer välkomna.
  • En riktigt läskig tanke är att det kan skulle kunna finnas ännu värre bemötanden mot kvinnliga bloodbowlers, men att de tjejer som upplever de lägger av med bloodbowlandet och således inte skriver om det här. Jag tror och hoppas dock innerligt att så inte är fallet.
  • Den fantastiska kvinna som huserade några av oss i Umeå i år förklarade klimatet. Hon sa att hon var väldigt sugen att börja spela men att hon inte tagit steget eftersom hon aldrig känt att hon var välkommen i den lokala brädspelsbutiken. Det finns många nivåer i denna diskussion och självklart kan vi inte nå alla med våra kloka ord. Något att fundera kring är huruvida man ska starta en kampanj typ: stå upp för allas rätt till nördiga brädspel. Skämt å sido, det finns många sidor av detta mynt vi får helt enkelt försöka sprida vår acceptans.
  • Jag kan säga att jag inte heller har känt mig så välkommen i spelbutiken i Umeå, över 30 med barn och så. Tror ingen av oss som spelar blood bowl i Umeå håller till där och spelar.

    Poängterar att det har inget att göra med butiksinnehavaren, han är jätteschysst och det är en bra butik. Vi har haft en del samarbete genom åren och har bara positiva erfarenheter. Jag vet att butiksinnehavaren är så otroligt imponerad av att det dyker upp kvinnor på blood Bowl-turneringarna i Umeå.

    De som spelar figurspel i butiken tar upp väldigt mycket plats och de har en väldigt homogen, ung och pojkig kultur som det är svårt att komma in i. Förstår att det är svårt för nybörjare att komma in om man inte redan känner någon. Vet flera som slutat spela för de känner sig utfrysta, både män och kvinnor.

    Om kvinnan i Umeå fortfarande är intresserad av att spela och låna lite lag så ska det inte vara några problem i vår liga. Tror inte att gå in på butiken är rätt lösning, utan att tala med oss i Umeå via forumet var hur jag och många andra blood bowl-spelare började i vår liga.

    Är helt klart för att starta en kampanj för att främja människors rätt att få nörda ned sig i spel.
  • Vilken butik är detta?
  • edited August 2014
    Med risk för namecalling gäller det både Collectors Point (med en miljard magic-marodörer ... ) och Fantasia (GW Rules typ) med som sagt ... ägarna gör vad de kan.
  • Jag trodde det var World of Boardgames. Men ingen butik i Umeå är drivande inom Blood Bowl, men det kommer sig ju naturligt eftersom de inte säljer Blood Bowl saker.
  • Jo jag tänkte främst på Collectors Point och Fantasia. WoB har faktiskt en del blood bowl-saker i hyllorna (fast väldigt lite) och det har inte varit omöjligt för dem att ta hem en del saker om man pratar med dem. Nackdelen med den butiken är att den ligger lite avsides och det brukar vara tomt på folk där.
  • Jag hängde mycket i Collector's Point på nittiotalet, och är god vän med både Per och Andreas. Men i samband med denna tråd inser jag att det nog alltid har varit svårt för tjejer i den miljön. Ganska skrämmande att det inte slagit mig tidigare.
  • Först så ber jag om ursäkt till Bim och Betty för det manliga beteende som ni har fått stå ut med. Så tråkigt att höra att det finns idioter som inte kan bete sig på ett värdigt sätt.

    Tyvärr så verkar det som att i spelhobbyn så verkar det som om att det sämsta klimatet för tjejer är i figurspelshobbyn samt i den digitala delen av hobbyn som tv och dataspel.
    Kanske för att det är lite mer av den yngre generation är representerad i dom delarna. (min egna gissning). Däremot så trodde jag att då vi inte direkt är purunga som spelar BloodBowl så trodde jag att vi hade kommit ifrån detta pubertala sätt att bete sig men tyvärr verkar det inte så då :(

    Ett bättre klimat verkar vara med dom som spelar brädspel och rollspel men jag hoppas verkligen att vi kan få ett bra klimat för alla som vill spela spel oavsett i vilken form det är.

    Vad gällande kvinnan i Umeå som Betty pratade om så kan jag rekommendera att hon uppsöker World of boardgames. Där tas alla emot på ett bra sätt.



  • Hi Bim

    My Swedish is not great, so will write in English.

    One of the guys from "Blågården Blood Bowl Liga" saw this post and made me aware of it.

    First thing, I think it was awesome that all you guys (and girls) came from Sweden! This made Danish Open last year the biggest Blood Bowl tournament in Denmark ever (as far as I can remember). There was a strike on the railways, and you came anyway.

    En av de danska coacherna vände sig till de tre göteborgarna och frågade "Have you brought a cheerleader?". När vi fyra blev rätt ställda och inte svarade så vände han sig till mig och frågade misstroende "Are you playing?". När jag svarade jakande utbrast hans vän "WHAT!?!?". Det var inte någon av arrangörerna, så det kan ju inte de hjälpa, men jag kände mig ju inte helt välkommen eller bekväm i situationen och sökte mig genast till mina vanliga trygga Stockbowlvänner när de dök upp.

    I remember I met you outside when you arrived and I showed you the way. I can't remember if it was me who asked if you bought a cheerleader. It could have been, if it was it was just a geeky way of saying "You brought a girl" and the follow up question was "Are you playing? If it was me this would have been a "hopefully you are playing" question as some girls tag along their boyfriends.
    "I have never actually seen a female blood bowl player before."
    Girls are rare, I have seen a few to the big tournaments World Cup etc. and on Fumbbl.

    "I have three third prices. First price is a boy. Second price is a handicapped boy. Third price is a girl. I have three daughters"
    I admit, this is a harsh joke. I know the guy and he actually got 3 girls.

    "Maybe we should have a price for best girl."
    I said this. We had prizes for best Stunty so why not best girl? You were the only one brave enough to show up :)

    "I was afraid you had decided to play amazons because you were some sort of feminist." (Vilket jag förklarade att jag är, men att det inte har något att göra med mitt val att spela amazoner.)
    I hope you won the game?

    "I lost to a girl?! I will get so teased for this."
    He will get teased anyway. He Lost.

    I am sorry if any of the comments ruined the tournament for you, I sincerely hope you will come to Danish Open again.

    Morten Bonnin Willum
    On behalf of the Danish Blood Bowl Association

  • Hello Morten,

    This might seem a bit hostile, but I hope you will see my point.

    I am not sure what you wanted to accomplish by writing this?
    The message that I read from this is that the concerns that have been raised are accurate, but not at all a problem of any kind. And since there is no problem things will remain precisely as they are.

    And I hope you realise that when you compare women playing the game of blood bowl to stunties, it communicates that they are tier 2 or 3 compared to real(=male) players?
    We had prizes for best Stunty so why not best girl?

    I realise this probably was not the way you wanted to come across. But unfortunatly that is the only way I can interpret your message.
  • edited October 2014
    mobo wrote: »
    "Maybe we should have a price for best girl."
    I said this. We had prizes for best Stunty so why not best girl? You were the only one brave enough to show up :)

    I don't think you've understood the topic, as Ozt has already said.
    The idea of having a "best girl" prize is exactly what this thread is about. There's prizes for the best player, most TD etc. That's enough and gender shouldn't be involved at all and that's the point. We're all Blood Bowl coaches, regardless of gender.
  • I thought that @mobo came off as self aware. I also found my point valid. When someone who never been seen in a situation shows up people will react. Perhaps plump but that will after time change by it self. Nice to know that the problem has come to Danelands attention though.
  • Not at all seeing girls as tier 3.
    I just meant that it is cool to see a girl at the tournament.
    Point taken. Treat girls as any other Blood Bowl Coach (no mercy ;) )

    What I want to accomplish is that Bim and other coaches (male or female) feels welcome in Danish tournaments.
    Any advice is welcome.




  • Commendable that you want to make all coaches feel welcome at tournaments!
    I think treating all coaches the same, regardless of gender/race/creed, is a good step.

    I might be wrong, but the following is what I believe after I have given it a lot of thought.

    General rule: don´t make jokes or comments about whatever sets people apart from the majority of attendees until you know the person well enough to know if it will be received in the manner you intend it.

    Of course jokes are not forbidden and it´s a great thing to have fun together. But when jokes fail, sometimes the joker just looks like an asshole.
    I have been an unintentional asshole a lot over the years, but I´m trying to get better even though it takes some work and I fail now and again.

    In cases like this it´s the same joke in different words repeated over and over by several persons and when you take them all together it´s a constant refrain about why the butt of the jokes isn´t the standard, but other and outside of the community.
    And sometimes it´s not jokes but real contempt or dismissal, and the bad jokes will be even less welcome after that.

    People who feel stared at and feel that they are not a respected part of the group go elsewhere.

    This is a really big issue and not something that is particular to blood bowl, but if we make our small part of society slightly more welcoming I think it´s worth a lot.
  • There are more genders than male/female.
  • @ozt makes really valid points. One thing that should also be point out is that just because two people who knows each other well has a certain harch culture of speaking to each other it is not OK to talk to them the same way.
  • BimBim
    edited October 2014
    Hi Morten @mobo. Firstly I want to thank you for looking this up and responding.
    En av de danska coacherna vände sig till de tre göteborgarna och frågade "Have you brought a cheerleader?". När vi fyra blev rätt ställda och inte svarade så vände han sig till mig och frågade misstroende "Are you playing?". När jag svarade jakande utbrast hans vän "WHAT!?!?". Det var inte någon av arrangörerna, så det kan ju inte de hjälpa, men jag kände mig ju inte helt välkommen eller bekväm i situationen och sökte mig genast till mina vanliga trygga Stockbowlvänner när de dök upp.

    I remember I met you outside when you arrived and I showed you the way. I can't remember if it was me who asked if you bought a cheerleader. It could have been, if it was it was just a geeky way of saying "You brought a girl" and the follow up question was "Are you playing? If it was me this would have been a "hopefully you are playing" question as some girls tag along their boyfriends.

    To call a girl a cheerleader is not a "geeky" way of saying "you brought a girl", it's a douchy way to say it. Also, a woman is not brought, she chooses to show up. I would appreciate if I was addressed regarding me being there instead of the question being directed at the people I happened to arrive with.
    "I have three third prices. First price is a boy. Second price is a handicapped boy. Third price is a girl. I have three daughters"
    I admit, this is a harsh joke. I know the guy and he actually got 3 girls.

    The truthfulness of the statement regarding how many daughters he has is quite irrelevant, and yes, it is a harsh and sexist joke.
    "Maybe we should have a price for best girl."
    I said this. We had prizes for best Stunty so why not best girl? You were the only one brave enough to show up :)

    I really hope that in the future one doesn't have to be brave to enjoy blood bowl.
    And I agree with Ozt's statement that "when you compare women playing the game of blood bowl to stunties, it communicates that they are tier 2 or 3 compared to real(=male) players?" However, I am pretty sure you did not mean it that way.
    "I was afraid you had decided to play amazons because you were some sort of feminist." (Vilket jag förklarade att jag är, men att det inte har något att göra med mitt val att spela amazoner.)
    I hope you won the game?

    I never played the guy who said this, it was a comment after all the matches were done day 1.
    "I lost to a girl?! I will get so teased for this."
    He will get teased anyway. He Lost.
    But obviously he took it harder when he lost to me. And as long as blood bowl is not played by pushing the figurines around using your genitals I really do not see the relevance.
    I am sorry if any of the comments ruined the tournament for you, I sincerely hope you will come to Danish Open again.

    I may sound a bit harsh in these comments, but I hope that you can handle that and that we all, as a community, become more used to analyzing and to question gender stereotypes, or other stereotypes for that matter. I will hopefully show up in Denmark to play you guys again and hopefully kick some ass, Nuffle be willing ;)

    And also, a big chunk of love to @BrocCooli for this wonderful and true comment:
    There are more genders than male/female.

    Kind regards
    Bim
  • Either way, I enjoyed your participation tremendously.
  • Hey there Bim and guys. Another Dane here, trying to, not make excuses - but explain some of the cultural differences that likely was behind much of this.

    First off. I am sorry if you felt offended, and I´m pretty certain none of the guys meant any harm with their comments.

    The Danish Blood Bowl community however do have a rather harsh underlining approach to humor. Some people are harder than others, obviously. It appears you met some of those..

    I will not claim that it is great humor in any way, it is often low, rude and direct. And it can be perceived as sexist and racist in nature. However, this is due to a basic under-standing between us, that we do not actually believe that. Hence a baseline irony or sarcasm is underlining much of what is said - and must be filtered through that understanding first.

    It is however primarily aimed at ourselves, though that of course isn´t easy to see, when one isn´t part of the "core" and in general we should´t do it to strangers, where the risk of misunderstandings obviously are much bigger.

    I am also aware that you are far from the first person who have been, lets say "puzzled", by this.

    I am particular glad to read this:
    I may sound a bit harsh in these comments, but I hope that you can handle that and that we all, as a community, become more used to analyzing and to question gender stereotypes, or other stereotypes for that matter. I will hopefully show up in Denmark to play you guys again and hopefully kick some ass, Nuffle be willing ;)

    As that is what I have worked hard for in years. An open community, where people enjoy tourneys across the countries borders, despite cultural differences and respect for our differences.

    I hope that you will attend a tourney in Denmark again.

    Cheers and best regards
    Topper
  • Topper wrote: »
    The Danish Blood Bowl community however do have a rather harsh underlining approach to humor. Some people are harder than others, obviously. It appears you met some of those..

    I will not claim that it is great humor in any way, it is often low, rude and direct. And it can be perceived as sexist and racist in nature. However, this is due to a basic under-standing between us, that we do not actually believe that. Hence a baseline irony or sarcasm is underlining much of what is said - and must be filtered through that understanding first.

    It is however primarily aimed at ourselves, though that of course isn´t easy to see, when one isn´t part of the "core" and in general we should´t do it to strangers, where the risk of misunderstandings obviously are much bigger.

    Pro tip: don't make that kind of jokes when you are not alone.
    Pro tip nr 2: don't make that kind of jokes at all.

    Topper wrote: »
    I am also aware that you are far from the first person who have been, lets say "puzzled", by this.

    So you know you have this problem and still you are doing the same thing that causes the problem. Yay for you...

    Topper wrote: »
    As that is what I have worked hard for in years. An open community, where people enjoy tourneys across the countries borders, despite cultural differences and respect for our differences.

    I don't even know what to say about this...
    Sorry if I am hard and bashing, but I hope you realize that the last part makes no sense at all after reading your first comments.
  • Topper wrote: »
    It is however primarily aimed at ourselves, though that of course isn´t easy to see, when one isn´t part of the "core" and in general we should´t do it to strangers, where the risk of misunderstandings obviously are much bigger.

    I believe that this is the core of the matter.

    When you don't know everyone around you, you should think twice about what you say. Even if it is meant as humor it might not come off as funny.

    If i have a balding friend and I know that it's OK to joke about it that is one thing. If I meet a bald guy for the first time I wouldn't joke about his loss of hair, as it might not be received well. In fact I may offend him and it may color his view of me forever. I'm not saying I'm perfect at this, we all make mistakes.

    Being the butt of a joke again and again (in particular when you are the only one around) will surely drive people away and make sure we do not create the open community and respect @Topper and (hopefully) all of us envision.

    I think it is very important that we treat everyone who have an interest in Blood Bowl respectfully and equally. Regardless of gender, color, age, sexual orientation or whatever. I think that is the way to grow into an accepting and welcoming community.
  • Mago wrote: »
    If i have a balding friend and I know that it's OK to joke about it that is one thing. If I meet a bald guy for the first time I wouldn't joke about his loss of hair, as it might not be received well. In fact I may offend him and it may color his view of me forever. I'm not saying I'm perfect at this, we all make mistakes.
    This

    In my opinion you can joke about pretty much anything, but it all depends on your audience - I don't joke about the same things at work as I do among friends (they might get upset an fire me or something).
    Might be better to try out the waters before making jokes that people can find to be upsetting - but I can understand that it might be difficult if you are used to a jargong and have to switch over to a "normal" way of talking.
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